Pigeons: rats with wings or wonder birds? Rosemary Mosco, science writer and naturalist, enters the dovecote with Eve and Julie to settle the debate. The author and illustrator of A Pocket Guide to Pigeon Watching: Getting to Know the World’s Most Misunderstood Bird, Rosemary defends her feral, feathered friends with an extraordinary (yet widely unknown) historical and anatomical tour. She discusses how the once-wild rock pigeon grew into a domesticated military tool capable of turning “the global tide of politics.” And, in a Book Dreams first, Rosemary illustrates what it would mean for a pigeon to be endowed--yes, that kind of endowed. As Julie’s grandmother would say, this episode has “got some sexy in it.”

What happens when an author takes a genre that's considered a bedrock of American culture and flips the wagon upside-down? As Tom Lin puts it, “I’m not following the rules of the American Western.” The author of the debut novel The Thousand Crimes of Ming Tsu, Tom subverts the “old, old notions of what makes an American” and redefines the classic genre by telling his story through the eyes of a Chinese American gunslinger assassin in the 1860s. Tom discusses with Eve and Julie how the American Western evolved into mythology, not only glorifying the westward expansion of the American people but also justifying the violence, colonialism, and genocide used to achieve it. He also shares why, almost 150 years later, Americans continue to return to the Western and the potential connection the genre has to the “consciousness of ourselves.”

What if our experience of ancient Greek plays, rather than involving stultifying boredom, could instead evoke powerful emotions? Bryan Doerries–author of many books involving ancient Greek plays and Artistic Director of Theater of War Productions–talks with Julie and Eve about the tragic loss in his life that caused Greek plays to suddenly begin “sp[eaking] directly to me as if they've been written for me.” As a director, he has since sought “audience[s] that have experienced the extremities of life”--he’s performed at hospitals, for the military, in prisons, for addicts, and for the survivors of natural disasters. Bryan discusses what it is about ancient Greek plays that make them resonate all these centuries later. He also details why the audience discussions that follow the play can be more meaningful than the performances themselves. Finally, Bryan explains how the protocols of theatergoing today are a “kind of violence.”

In this episode, Julie and Eve talk to Brom about what it’s like to both write and illustrate his books, which include his gorgeous, creepy, lush, atmospheric paintings. He describes the relationship between the writer and the visual artist in him--and what happens when they’re in conflict. They talk, too, about the creative challenges raised by Brom’s latest novel, Slewfoot: A Tale of Bewitchery, a horror novel set in colonial America, and why Norman Rockwell is perhaps Brom’s biggest inspiration. They also discuss how Brom’s books have found a devoted audience while defying certain traditional publishing norms. And in a nod to Halloween, Eve shares a story about a psychic experience that was the most frightening night of her life.

If a picture is worth a thousand words, what is the worth of a word? David Shariatmadari, author of Don't Believe A Word: The Surprising Truth About Language, talks with Julie and Eve about little-known origins of words and how their modern-day usage both reflects and impacts culture. For example, the word “happiness” no longer suggests a fleeting state of mind, as it did before the 18th century; instead, English speakers have come to believe happiness can be a permanent condition. Even the lowly toilet has important cultural connotations! David, Julie, and Eve discuss the evolution of “toilet” as an example of how a word can start out as a euphemism and over time become unsavory and even taboo--and why that phenomenon matters. Julie, Book Dreams’ grammar queen, also investigates whether the rise in texting and decline in the number of words in picture books signify the end of civilization as we know it.

What’s it like for a professional ballerina to try a sedentary art form like writing? Georgina Pazcoguin, soloist with the New York City Ballet, talks with Eve and Julie about the creation of her debut memoir, Swan Dive: The Making of a Rogue Ballerina, in which she shakes the “stereotype of the uptight ballerina to bits.” Georgina takes Eve and Julie behind the curtain of the ballet and describes her experiences as NYCB’s first Asian American soloist. She also discusses the abuse inflicted by Peter Martins during his time as Artistic Director of NYCB, and its lingering effects on the dancers.

Even when history has been overlooked, ignored, or suppressed, that doesn’t mean it’s hidden. Researching and writing her novels, Kaitlyn Greenidge--author of Libertie and We Love You, Charlie Freeman--“approach[es] Black history from a place of abundance, from the idea that Black people have always been multifaceted, have always been fighting for freedom, and have always been coming up with ingenious ways to combat the world around us.” This week on Book Dreams, Kaitlyn discusses with Eve and Julie how society has emphasized exceptionalism in Black history to the detriment of Black people. She searches in unexpected places for evidence of the inner lives of the unexceptional, like Black spirituals. She also examines the difference between Black artists being forgotten and choosing not to be found.

Magic. It’s just a bunch of hocus pocus…or is it? World-renowned magician Joshua Jay--author of the new book How Magicians Think: Misdirection, Deception, and Why Magic Matters--lays his cards on the table for Eve and Julie as they explore the artistry and mastery of the craft. They discuss what draws people to magic and why some devote their entire lives to it; the difference between surprise and wonder--and how a ham sandwich factors in; and how Joshua continues to find joy in his craft as his “doorway to wonder” closes. Joshua also gives Eve and Julie a peek behind the curtain of his mentorship with the mysterious and nocturnal magic artist Juan Tamariz, whom magic scholars consider the greatest living magician of this century.

Hidden behind an Olympic gymnast’s smile or a classical ballerina’s serene grace is a darker reality, one involving grueling work and, often, physical and emotional pain. Megan Abbott, Edgar Award-winning author of the recent novel The Turnout, explores the insular worlds of gymnastics, ballet, and cheerleading and uses them to spotlight the damage that patriarchy can inflict on girls. Megan discusses with Eve and Julie how these microcosms reflect our tortured and damaging treatment of female sexuality generally and girls’ bodies more specifically. They talk, too, about the fleeting nature of beauty, and of our bodies’ strength, and why that adds to the appeal of these worlds. Megan also addresses various responses to actions taken by Simone Biles to protect her mental health during the Olympics, and how those responses highlight how far we have--and haven’t--progressed.

What does it say about the American Dream if immigrants achieve financial success but their children, and their children’s children, still experience a lack of belonging? What does it mean to be part of groups that are both privileged and treated as outsiders? What are the flaws in the stories we tell ourselves about our parents’ generation, and what are their consequences? What are the forces, internal and external, that shape our ambition? And when might ambition become our downfall? This week on Book Dreams, Sanjena Sathian--using the particular stories of two Indian American families in her debut novel Gold Diggers to access a universal story--shares thoughts on these questions and more.

Bryan Christy's investigations as a reporter have led to police raids of ivory shops in Vatican City, the defrocking of a pedophile monsignor, the arrest and imprisonment of the “Pablo Escobar of wildlife trafficking,” and the closing of China's ivory market. What strategies did he use to track down criminals? What mistakes did he make? Why were his stories so effective at generating change? And why has he now chosen to use his journalistic crime-fighting experience as the basis for his debut novel, In the Company of Killers, a thriller about the major criminal forces connected to wildlife exploitation? Bryan discusses with Eve and Julie all this and more in this week's episode of Book Dreams.

What happens when a Harvard professor puts the weight of her reputation behind an alleged ancient gospel with monumental implications for the Roman Catholic Church, and the gospel turns out to be a fake? In 2012, Karen King, the Hollis Professor of Divinity at Harvard’s Divinity School, announced the discovery of a gospel in which Jesus refers to “my wife.” Investigative reporter Ariel Sabar, author of Veritas: A Harvard Professor, a Con Man, and the Gospel of Jesus’s Wife, was present at the announcement and helped uncover the actuality of the gospel’s forgery.

In this episode of Book Dreams, Julie and Eve talk with Charles Person, the youngest and only surviving member of the original Freedom Riders. In May of 1961, thirteen men and women in Washington, D.C. boarded two public buses headed for New Orleans, to test whether states across the South were abiding by the Supreme Court’s recent decision forbidding segregation in bus depots, waiting areas, restaurants, and restrooms. Charles was only eighteen at the time. Now, six decades later, he recounts the day his fight for racial equity and justice nearly cost him and his fellow Riders their lives.

Vanessa Zoltan, author of the recently published Praying with Jane Eyre: Reflections on Reading as a Sacred Practice, is not your usual chaplain. She is an atheist who produces podcasts about treating Harry Potter, Twilight, and romance novels as sacred texts, and she runs pilgrimages and walking tours that explore sacred reading and writing. In this episode, Vanessa talks with Eve and Julie about what on earth (or in heaven or hell) drew her to attend Harvard Divinity School despite being a devout atheist. She explains how her spiritual education led her to find sacred engagement in her favorite secular books and how, particularly in the case of Jane Eyre, textual examination helped her navigate (but not forgive) problematic, contradictory, and racist narratives. Vanessa also shares advice for how we can read any book as a sacred text.

In this week’s episode, Eve and Julie talk to Jo Ann Beard about Festival Days, her extraordinary new collection of essays, some of which took decades to write. Jo Ann describes her deeply reflective, painstaking process and shares why so many of the pieces in Festival Days involve life and death moments and the kinds of reminiscences that emerge from thoughts about death. She discusses, too, her most famous essay, “The Fourth State of Matter” and wonders aloud about herself, “Why are you talking about this essay that you never talk about?” Published in The New Yorker in 1996, “The Fourth State of Matter” depicts a mass shooting at the University of Iowa lab where Jo Ann worked. “How do you take something like that, which is essentially meaningless, and infuse it with meaning?” Jo Ann asks during this Book Dreams episode. And she offers an answer to that heartbreaking question.

MINI EPISODE: Need help easing anxieties? Or resisting your cravings for sugar? Julie does. For this week’s episode, she sought help from neuroscientist Judson Brewer, author of Unwinding Anxiety: New Science Shows How to Break the Cycles of Worry and Fear to Heal Your Mind and The Craving Mind: From Cigarettes to Cellphones to Love--Why We Get Hooked and How We Can Break Bad Habits. The Director of Research and Innovation at Brown University’s Mindfulness Center, Dr. Brewer offers guidance for breaking bad habits--including spirals of worrying--using mindfulness and other brain-based practices. Have his strategies worked for Julie? Take a listen to her conversation with Eve and find out!

What’s it like to see stories through the eyes of a visual artist? Marla Frazee, multiple award-winning children’s book author and illustrator, shares her vision in a captivating conversation with Eve and Julie. The recipient of two Caldecott Honors and the Boston Globe Horn Book Award, Marla knew that she wanted to become an illustrator before she’d even found language. She explains why her three favorite illustrated books--The Carrot Seed, Blueberries for Sal, and Where the Wild Things Are--inspired her from the moment she first saw them as a young child, and what she’s learned from her deep study of them over the years. Marla sets out in revelatory detail, too, her process for transforming the text of a story into a fully realized, immersive world. And she shares insights about the relationships among authors, editors, and illustrators in the realm of picture book publishing.

In this week’s episode, Julie and Eve talk to comedian, writer, and actor Adrianne Chalepah and comedy historian Kliph Nesteroff about Native Americans and comedy. An enrolled member of the Kiowa Tribe of Oklahoma and a member of the Apache Tribe of Oklahoma, Adrianne has been a stand-up comedian for more than a decade. She’s the founder of the indigenous femme comedy troupe, Ladies of Native Comedy, and she plays the role of Shannon Diabo on Peacock’s hit show “Rutherford Falls.” Kliph was a stand-up comic for eight years. He’s the author of The Comedians: Drunks, Thieves, Scoundrels, and the History of American Comedy and, most recently, We Had a Little Real Estate Problem: The Unheralded Story of Native Americans & Comedy.

The Baby-Sitters Club. You may know the books, but do you know their story? David Levithan--Editorial Director at Scholastic; Founding Editor of Scholastic’s PUSH imprint; and New York Times bestselling author of 23 books, including Boy Meets Boy, Nick & Norah's Infinite Playlist (co-written with Rachel Cohn), and, most recently, The Mysterious Disappearance of Aidan S. as told to his brother--invites Eve and Julie into the Baby-Sitters clubhouse to talk about the impact and legacy of the 300-book (and counting) series. With more than 176 million copies sold, this juggernaut has inspired spinoffs, graphic novels, a movie, and two different TV series. Julie and Eve discuss David’s journey editing the series for nearly three decades--starting as a 19-year-old Scholastic intern--and what it’s taught him about writing and editing; what it was like to work with Ann M. Martin--the original author of the series--to create a literary world that multiple authors have collaborated on; and how the series has influenced a generation of writers, from Elizabeth Acevedo to Jenny Han. Eve also shares with David her personal connection to Scholastic.

We’ll take book recommendations for $1,000, please! In a first for Book Dreams, Eve and Julie have teamed up with Brookes May--host of the podcast Books with Brookes--to play a game they’re officially calling “You Want Me to Read What?” The rules are simple: Eve, Julie, and Brookes assign each other off-the-beaten-path books and then reconvene to share their honest (and sometimes hilarious) reviews. From ‘70s time-traveling YA, to literary short stories, to a fiction debut about a cannibalistic food critic-slash-feminist, find out which books have us saying, “Deal or No Deal.” But spoiler: we’re talking books, so everyone’s a winner this episode!